New Post : Strange behaviour of Diesel fuel supply.
Entabeni : 2006 Gen3 Pajero 3.2 DID LWB GLS AUTO 207,000 km
The symptoms are as follows:-
S1) A few weeks ago, after driving only 2km and parking for an hour, the Paj would not start, even though the fuel tank was full and the battery was OK, for it cranked the motor vigorously several times. There was not the faintest sign of any cylinder firing! After removing the fuel filter's bleed screw altogether and using its hand pump to squirt fuel (plus a little air) into a container, then replacing the screw but failing to do any further hand pumping, the car started immediately and ran normally on several short trips.
Following this there were many more observations. However, in the end I found no button for submitting the whole thing. Was it too long perhaps? If so, what is the limit?
We plan a trip to JHB, the lowveld and Natal next month so need to sort out this problem pronto. Help, help!
Mmmm.
Entabeni. To me that sounds suspiciously like a pump issue. Have you done the DIY test on your Gen3 to see if it pops any fault codes? I would do that first and see if it has logged any faults. If it is a fault on the diesel pump I am betting that it will be fault code 48 which points to a faulty GE actuator(electronic governor) on the diesel pump. Holding thumbs that it is not that as it will require costly pump rebuild.
Keep us updated please
CATS
Entabeni. To me that sounds suspiciously like a pump issue. Have you done the DIY test on your Gen3 to see if it pops any fault codes? I would do that first and see if it has logged any faults. If it is a fault on the diesel pump I am betting that it will be fault code 48 which points to a faulty GE actuator(electronic governor) on the diesel pump. Holding thumbs that it is not that as it will require costly pump rebuild.
Keep us updated please
CATS
2009 Pajero 3.2 DiDc Lwb GLS (Gen4) - Casper (Starting to grow on me)
2001 Pajero 3.2 DiD Lwb GLS Manual (Gen3) - Snoopy (SOLD but not forgotten)
2008 Pajero 3.2 DiDc Lwb GLS Auto (Gen4) - Silvester (SOLD)
2001 Pajero 3.2 DiD Lwb GLS Manual (Gen3) - Snoopy (SOLD but not forgotten)
2008 Pajero 3.2 DiDc Lwb GLS Auto (Gen4) - Silvester (SOLD)
New Post : Strange behaviour of 3.2 DID fuel supply, 2nd instalment.
Entabeni : 2006 Gen3 Pajero 3.2 DID LWB GLS AUTO 207,000 km
Continuing from my previous Post, further symptoms are as follows:-
S2) After driving 150 km the motor suddenly cut and we coasted to a halt. After bleeding, but not pumping thereafter, the motor started but there were clouds of black smoke from the exhaust and very little power. The more I depressed the accelerator, the more smoke! The Engine Warning and Active Stability Control lights on the dashboard had come on. After stopping again and repeating the bleed, the problem had gone and the car went very well again!
S3) A day later we set off up a very steep, rough mountain track. We had hardly started when a black smoke episode occurred as above. However, after the second bleed I remembered to pump the filter untill resistance was felt, and the problem cleared so we were able to drive up the mountain where we turned the vehicles round to face down the track again. After returning some hours later the Paj would not start even after 3 bleedings, in each case followed by pumping till resistance was felt. Then I skipped bleeding and pumped on the filter again. Surprisingly, the pumping started off soft and became hard only after about 6 or 7 strokes. After that the Paj started easily and got us down without any further trouble.
S4) The 200km-odd trip home went without a hitch by taking the precaution of pumping the filter till resistance was felt (without first bleeding), every time we stopped anywhere, and before trying to restart the motor,
S5) At home I drove the front wheels onto my ramps, disconnected the hoses from the fuel filter assembly and unscrewed the filter element. I tried sucking and blowing through the fuel supply pipe from the tank but that seemed totally blocked. Blowing into the fuel bypass pipe, (which goes from the injector pump to the fuel tank), produced bubbling sounds heard in the tank filler pipe.
S6) I decided to test the fuel pump as well as get fuel to refill the filter to enable driving off the ramps. With the handbrake on, the gearshift in Neutral, the low range lever in 4LLc position and someone holding a can under the fuel supply pipe at the filter, I put my foot on the brake and turned the ignition key to crank the motor, expecting fuel to pour out of the supply pipe. Instead the motor started but no fuel appeared for about 10 seconds so I switched off again! Then I re-assembled the whole filter system and its pipes without putting any fuel into them. When I started the motor again, and drove off the ramps, expecting the motor to die after a few seconds from fuel starvation, it did not die --- it just kept running. So I drove round the block without any problem! Surprisingly, the fuel pump must have filled the filter in double-quick time once the system was fully assembled!
Possible causes of fuel starvation:-
C1) Junk in the fuel tank blocking pump intake? C2) Fuel pump electrical supply partial or intermittent? C3) Problems with the fuel cutoff relay?
As we are planning to drive to Johannesburg, the Lowveld and Natal next month I need to solve the problem pronto! Help, help!
Entabeni : 2006 Gen3 Pajero 3.2 DID LWB GLS AUTO 207,000 km
Continuing from my previous Post, further symptoms are as follows:-
S2) After driving 150 km the motor suddenly cut and we coasted to a halt. After bleeding, but not pumping thereafter, the motor started but there were clouds of black smoke from the exhaust and very little power. The more I depressed the accelerator, the more smoke! The Engine Warning and Active Stability Control lights on the dashboard had come on. After stopping again and repeating the bleed, the problem had gone and the car went very well again!
S3) A day later we set off up a very steep, rough mountain track. We had hardly started when a black smoke episode occurred as above. However, after the second bleed I remembered to pump the filter untill resistance was felt, and the problem cleared so we were able to drive up the mountain where we turned the vehicles round to face down the track again. After returning some hours later the Paj would not start even after 3 bleedings, in each case followed by pumping till resistance was felt. Then I skipped bleeding and pumped on the filter again. Surprisingly, the pumping started off soft and became hard only after about 6 or 7 strokes. After that the Paj started easily and got us down without any further trouble.
S4) The 200km-odd trip home went without a hitch by taking the precaution of pumping the filter till resistance was felt (without first bleeding), every time we stopped anywhere, and before trying to restart the motor,
S5) At home I drove the front wheels onto my ramps, disconnected the hoses from the fuel filter assembly and unscrewed the filter element. I tried sucking and blowing through the fuel supply pipe from the tank but that seemed totally blocked. Blowing into the fuel bypass pipe, (which goes from the injector pump to the fuel tank), produced bubbling sounds heard in the tank filler pipe.
S6) I decided to test the fuel pump as well as get fuel to refill the filter to enable driving off the ramps. With the handbrake on, the gearshift in Neutral, the low range lever in 4LLc position and someone holding a can under the fuel supply pipe at the filter, I put my foot on the brake and turned the ignition key to crank the motor, expecting fuel to pour out of the supply pipe. Instead the motor started but no fuel appeared for about 10 seconds so I switched off again! Then I re-assembled the whole filter system and its pipes without putting any fuel into them. When I started the motor again, and drove off the ramps, expecting the motor to die after a few seconds from fuel starvation, it did not die --- it just kept running. So I drove round the block without any problem! Surprisingly, the fuel pump must have filled the filter in double-quick time once the system was fully assembled!
Possible causes of fuel starvation:-
C1) Junk in the fuel tank blocking pump intake? C2) Fuel pump electrical supply partial or intermittent? C3) Problems with the fuel cutoff relay?
As we are planning to drive to Johannesburg, the Lowveld and Natal next month I need to solve the problem pronto! Help, help!
- Is this the fuel cutoff relay?
Hi Entabeni.
Your 4m41 does not have a lift pump in the tank. it has a fuel pickup with a mesh strainer in the middle of some plastic baffles in the bottom of the tank. It delivers the fuel via a vane pump on the side of the injector pump which essentially "sucks" the fuel from the tank via your fuel filter, and delivers it to the high pressure chamber in the pump for injection.
Under you middle row if seats if you have a LWB, you will find an inspection cover under which you find the fuel tank level sensor and pickup. Give the strainer a good clean and make sure there is clearance under the pickup to the tank bottom.
A big problem with our Pajero's is the risk of denting the fuel tank on a rock and obstructing the fuel pick up strainer.
Edit. Agree with cats on the diy error code scan, the traction control and CEL event would have definitely logged an error code.
Your 4m41 does not have a lift pump in the tank. it has a fuel pickup with a mesh strainer in the middle of some plastic baffles in the bottom of the tank. It delivers the fuel via a vane pump on the side of the injector pump which essentially "sucks" the fuel from the tank via your fuel filter, and delivers it to the high pressure chamber in the pump for injection.
Under you middle row if seats if you have a LWB, you will find an inspection cover under which you find the fuel tank level sensor and pickup. Give the strainer a good clean and make sure there is clearance under the pickup to the tank bottom.
A big problem with our Pajero's is the risk of denting the fuel tank on a rock and obstructing the fuel pick up strainer.
Edit. Agree with cats on the diy error code scan, the traction control and CEL event would have definitely logged an error code.
Nicholas Gibson
2005 Gen 3 Pajero 3.2 DiD Auto LWB
Mods:
ARB front bumper, OME, Lynx Bash Plate, Lynx Rock-sliders, Lynx rear steel bumper, Front Runner 40lt Long range tank, Madman EMS2 with EGT, dual battery system, 700FF spots
Corsa 1.4 Club (swambo)
Cape Town
"In my house I'm the boss, my wife is just the decision maker." - Woody Allen
2005 Gen 3 Pajero 3.2 DiD Auto LWB
Mods:
ARB front bumper, OME, Lynx Bash Plate, Lynx Rock-sliders, Lynx rear steel bumper, Front Runner 40lt Long range tank, Madman EMS2 with EGT, dual battery system, 700FF spots
Corsa 1.4 Club (swambo)
Cape Town
"In my house I'm the boss, my wife is just the decision maker." - Woody Allen
Per Nick,
Check the in-tank filter.
Given that you say you can't suck / blow the supply line to the engine bay filter.
The tank lining has been known to flake off, and the flakes can then block the in-tank filter.
Some branches of Silverton offer a service to clean fuel tanks.
Edit: If it is flaking, the last thing you want in your injection pump is that stuff.
Check the in-tank filter.
Given that you say you can't suck / blow the supply line to the engine bay filter.
The tank lining has been known to flake off, and the flakes can then block the in-tank filter.
Some branches of Silverton offer a service to clean fuel tanks.
Edit: If it is flaking, the last thing you want in your injection pump is that stuff.
Ps. In your photo, the item you labelled injection pump is actually the GE (governor electric) actuator on-top of the pump, and the black box is not the fuel cut off relay, it's the GE actuator ROM module. See my post (injector pump burnt out) , that is the item that got fried on my Pajero.
Pps. Dented fuel tank and lining flaking is what damaged my van when skillie still owned it, cost him a bundle to fix...
Perhaps check the sediment in your fuel filter for evidence of that.
Sent from somewhere in a galaxy far, far away...
Pps. Dented fuel tank and lining flaking is what damaged my van when skillie still owned it, cost him a bundle to fix...
Perhaps check the sediment in your fuel filter for evidence of that.
Sent from somewhere in a galaxy far, far away...
Nicholas Gibson
2005 Gen 3 Pajero 3.2 DiD Auto LWB
Mods:
ARB front bumper, OME, Lynx Bash Plate, Lynx Rock-sliders, Lynx rear steel bumper, Front Runner 40lt Long range tank, Madman EMS2 with EGT, dual battery system, 700FF spots
Corsa 1.4 Club (swambo)
Cape Town
"In my house I'm the boss, my wife is just the decision maker." - Woody Allen
2005 Gen 3 Pajero 3.2 DiD Auto LWB
Mods:
ARB front bumper, OME, Lynx Bash Plate, Lynx Rock-sliders, Lynx rear steel bumper, Front Runner 40lt Long range tank, Madman EMS2 with EGT, dual battery system, 700FF spots
Corsa 1.4 Club (swambo)
Cape Town
"In my house I'm the boss, my wife is just the decision maker." - Woody Allen
Problem now understood and fixable, i hope.
Entabeni : 2006 Gen3 Pajero 3.2 DID LWB GLS AUTO 207,000 km
Nick Gibson and Andrew Ashton, thank you both for your invaluable inputs. I removed the 2 plates under the right hand middle seat to give access to the top of the fuel tank. After scrubbing and hosing sand and pebbles off the tank I dried the area and removed the plate through which the pickup and fuel return pipes go down into the tank. This of course confirmed that there is no pump in the fuel tank, which is why no fuel came out of the supply pipe at the filter when I turned the ignition on. The second critical discovery was that the rather delicate plastic seive which keeps dirt out of the fuel supply pipe had been squahed upwards enough for its solid bottom to contact the open end of the fuel pipe going to the filter in the engine bay! You were dead right! The bottom of the tank has been bent upwards. That is why I could not blow or suck through the pipe from the filter end! Because the fuel pump at the injector pump was sucking hard this would explain air getting into the fuel supply, perhaps through hose connections and acting like a vapour lock.
A recent case of damage to the fuel tank happened as follows: In September 2014 we stayed at the Langkloof campsite in the Tanqua Karoo. The gravel road is good but has some very severe speed bumps. With my attention elsewhere I hit one of these at 30 to 40 km/h. The car left the ground completely and came down with a crunch on the slight middelmannetjie. The front bash-plate was bent up enough to push the lower part of the Intercooler upwards by about 4 cm, but apparently it was not holed - see photo. On examination it seems that the fuel tank and its protective cover were also dented.
This weekend I will remove the cover (with the mud and pebbles that have accumulated between it and the tank). I will also try to 'straighten' the tank, perhaps by jacking a wooden block downwards onto the bottom of the tank from inside the car.
Thanks a ton, also for the info on the fuel cutoff relay.
Entabeni.
Entabeni : 2006 Gen3 Pajero 3.2 DID LWB GLS AUTO 207,000 km
Nick Gibson and Andrew Ashton, thank you both for your invaluable inputs. I removed the 2 plates under the right hand middle seat to give access to the top of the fuel tank. After scrubbing and hosing sand and pebbles off the tank I dried the area and removed the plate through which the pickup and fuel return pipes go down into the tank. This of course confirmed that there is no pump in the fuel tank, which is why no fuel came out of the supply pipe at the filter when I turned the ignition on. The second critical discovery was that the rather delicate plastic seive which keeps dirt out of the fuel supply pipe had been squahed upwards enough for its solid bottom to contact the open end of the fuel pipe going to the filter in the engine bay! You were dead right! The bottom of the tank has been bent upwards. That is why I could not blow or suck through the pipe from the filter end! Because the fuel pump at the injector pump was sucking hard this would explain air getting into the fuel supply, perhaps through hose connections and acting like a vapour lock.
A recent case of damage to the fuel tank happened as follows: In September 2014 we stayed at the Langkloof campsite in the Tanqua Karoo. The gravel road is good but has some very severe speed bumps. With my attention elsewhere I hit one of these at 30 to 40 km/h. The car left the ground completely and came down with a crunch on the slight middelmannetjie. The front bash-plate was bent up enough to push the lower part of the Intercooler upwards by about 4 cm, but apparently it was not holed - see photo. On examination it seems that the fuel tank and its protective cover were also dented.
This weekend I will remove the cover (with the mud and pebbles that have accumulated between it and the tank). I will also try to 'straighten' the tank, perhaps by jacking a wooden block downwards onto the bottom of the tank from inside the car.
Thanks a ton, also for the info on the fuel cutoff relay.
Entabeni.
- In-tank fuel pi[e assembly
- Intercooler damage
- Sieve before cleaning
- Fuel cut off by dented tank
Hi Entabeni,
1. The fact that your fuel issues are tank suction related is great news (compared with other possibilities!).
2. If you are going to do a tank job yourself - try not to damage the lining, because it seems possible that that becomes a point at which delamination can start. Anyway also check for the state of the lining while you have visibility of this - looks to be OK from the state of the in-tank filter.
3. If you are not able to do the tank yourself, then Silverton / another competent local radiator repair shop should be able to sort it out.
4. Ditto re the intercooler - Silverton / another competent local radiator repair shop should be able to sort it out. It will be quite restricted and less efficient as it is.
5. Maybe time for a stronger bash plate!
1. The fact that your fuel issues are tank suction related is great news (compared with other possibilities!).
2. If you are going to do a tank job yourself - try not to damage the lining, because it seems possible that that becomes a point at which delamination can start. Anyway also check for the state of the lining while you have visibility of this - looks to be OK from the state of the in-tank filter.
3. If you are not able to do the tank yourself, then Silverton / another competent local radiator repair shop should be able to sort it out.
4. Ditto re the intercooler - Silverton / another competent local radiator repair shop should be able to sort it out. It will be quite restricted and less efficient as it is.
5. Maybe time for a stronger bash plate!
Hi,
Please dont forget to check the fuel filter bracket (with hand pump).
I have got a similar symptoms that yours on both my Pajero 3.2 DID and my 2nd generation Pajero 2.5 Tdi. After few hours of stop the engine wont start, after air bleeding the engine starts well. It was the hand pump the problem origin !
The problem was solved by the fuel filter bracket replacement on both my Pajeros
With regards,
Please dont forget to check the fuel filter bracket (with hand pump).
I have got a similar symptoms that yours on both my Pajero 3.2 DID and my 2nd generation Pajero 2.5 Tdi. After few hours of stop the engine wont start, after air bleeding the engine starts well. It was the hand pump the problem origin !
The problem was solved by the fuel filter bracket replacement on both my Pajeros
With regards,
Update to: Strange behaviour of 3.2 DID fuel supply, .
Entabeni : 2006 Gen3 Pajero 3.2 DID LWB GLS AUTO 207,000 km
My fuel problem has been completely fixed as described below and illustrated in some new photos.
With the two cover plates under the right middle seat plus the fuel feed and return pipe assembly in the tank removed, it is clear that the tank bottom is accessible for repair. The extent of the dents is shown by using straight edges in some photos. Using a clean plank of 22x43x465 mm and a 4 lb hammer I was able to bump the tank bottom downwards in the critical area under the open end of the fuel feed pipe until it had a slight bulge downwards.
The protective cover under the tank could not be completely removed without lowering the cross-member supporting the transmission, so access was difficult. The cover had also been distorted upwards and badly cracked in the process. However, It was possible to reshape it using a heat gun (with a piece of steel plate on the upper side to avoid heating the tank) then pressing down on the cracked area with a piece of wood. Unfortunately the crack tended to open so I used two stainless steel pop rivets with washers to hold it closed. To keep the upper surface as smooth as posible the rivets were inserted from above.
After reassembling all items I went back to the engine bay to fill the fuel feed pipe before attempting to start the motor. Having detached the filter hose from it, I used transparent 12mm PVC tubing to suck on the pipe, and this time it was not blocked! After considerable sucking fuel appeared in the tube. By rapidly reconnected the filter hose before much fuel could run back into the tank and bleeding the filter and pumping till there was resistance, the motor started without any delay. As far as I can judge the problem is now fixed.
For you guys who have had similar fuel feed problems, like the motor simply cutting out while driving, the test for a dented tank causing the problem is so simple! Just see if you can both blow and suck through the fuel feed pipe where it goes into the filter. If the problem were loose dirt in the tank, blowing should clear it, after which you should be able to suck some fuel before it blocks again.
Best of luck,
Entabeni.
Entabeni : 2006 Gen3 Pajero 3.2 DID LWB GLS AUTO 207,000 km
My fuel problem has been completely fixed as described below and illustrated in some new photos.
With the two cover plates under the right middle seat plus the fuel feed and return pipe assembly in the tank removed, it is clear that the tank bottom is accessible for repair. The extent of the dents is shown by using straight edges in some photos. Using a clean plank of 22x43x465 mm and a 4 lb hammer I was able to bump the tank bottom downwards in the critical area under the open end of the fuel feed pipe until it had a slight bulge downwards.
The protective cover under the tank could not be completely removed without lowering the cross-member supporting the transmission, so access was difficult. The cover had also been distorted upwards and badly cracked in the process. However, It was possible to reshape it using a heat gun (with a piece of steel plate on the upper side to avoid heating the tank) then pressing down on the cracked area with a piece of wood. Unfortunately the crack tended to open so I used two stainless steel pop rivets with washers to hold it closed. To keep the upper surface as smooth as posible the rivets were inserted from above.
After reassembling all items I went back to the engine bay to fill the fuel feed pipe before attempting to start the motor. Having detached the filter hose from it, I used transparent 12mm PVC tubing to suck on the pipe, and this time it was not blocked! After considerable sucking fuel appeared in the tube. By rapidly reconnected the filter hose before much fuel could run back into the tank and bleeding the filter and pumping till there was resistance, the motor started without any delay. As far as I can judge the problem is now fixed.
For you guys who have had similar fuel feed problems, like the motor simply cutting out while driving, the test for a dented tank causing the problem is so simple! Just see if you can both blow and suck through the fuel feed pipe where it goes into the filter. If the problem were loose dirt in the tank, blowing should clear it, after which you should be able to suck some fuel before it blocks again.
Best of luck,
Entabeni.
- Awkward access to fuel tank
Attachments:
- Bottom view of repaired cover
- Dent removed
- The shadow exagerates the 6mm dent
- Bashing the dent
- Using longish plank for repair
- View of tank bottom